Transportation Chats

The Environmental Impact of Transportation Conference took place in October and early November 2003. Discussion continues in the forum and we are updating links to other websites. For those who find these resources of value, we ask for a voluntary $50 contribution via check or Pay Pal

PARTICIPANTS

AUSTRALIA/BRAZIL - Marcus Endicott, host/owner of the green-travel list
USA/ECUADOR - Andres Hammerman/Michelle Kirby, Black Sheep Inn
GREECE - Antonis Petropoulos, host/owner of EcoClub
USA/MEXICO - Ron Mader, host/owner of Planeta.com
MEXICO - Luis Mercado, Eccosports
CANADA/NICARAGUA - Richard Tuck, Comarca Turs
USA - John Shores, host/owner of The Shores System
BRAZIL/USA - Sergio Moraes

ABOUT THE CHATS

The chats took place on the EcoClub website. Thanks Antonis!

10.15.2003

OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE CONFERENCE

Antonis: The participants in the on-line conference are very strong, but it is not a large group.
Ron: While it's true that this conference has the lowest number of registered participants -- 15 -- it also has the highest level of participation
Antonis: Unfortunately, there are no representatives from airlines...
Ron: Yesterday morning I had a long conversation with a tour agent in Austin, Texas. While he is interested in the environmental perspectives and ecotourism, he does not have much time to read summaries, let alone participate in an on-line conference. I think the same could be said of others. I think some people don't want to take the time (3 weeks!) to focus on a topic that is a bit obscure.
Richard: I agree on the "obscurity" of the topic, though I wouldn't use that word. I think that few people have any idea how to combat it (airline pollution especially)
Luis: On the other hand, the airlines are in very vulnerable situation, and could be more receptive to mayor changes..
John: It's also a topic without much hope of early solutions. I'm impressed with the broad understanding among the conference participants that air travel is a tough nut to crack. We depend on it for tourism, and it's a big environmental negative. That's got to be painful.
Ron: If I have one hope for this conference, it's that it should open the door to a dialogue at the policy-making level, perhaps in 2004

Antonis: I think people see conventional conferences - in the real world, not on-line - as an opportunity for face-to-face networking rather than solving problems. They can not figure out how they can accomplish the same networking on-line.
Ron: Good point, Antonis
Ron: I'd follow up on Antonis' point about the difference between natural world and on-line conferencing ... one of the major differences between what many conferences do and what Planeta conferences are about is that we don't have a pre-determined outcome. This can generate a really good discussion as we've seen in the IYE2002 and ecotourism certification forums. But the actual dialogue actually bothers many who think they already have everything worked out

TRANSPORTATION AND TOURISM

Richard: Here in Nicaragua, we try to encourage horseback riding and mountain biking in the communities close to the protected areas, for tourists to use, but what more can we do...when tourists want to be in cars.
Antonis: To Richard: You can make cars more expensive.
Luis: Or make it really complicated to use the car.
Richard: I don't think airlines are in that bad a situation right now, yesterday I received a message saying that airline stocks are going up, and Continental Airlines will be back in the black by the third quarter.
Antonis: Airlines took a big hit after 9/11 so governments are weary of talking of taxing them right now, for carbon emissions that is
John: If we see CO2 restrictions as a result of Kyoto (Russia may have dropped out of the Protocol now), transportation will be one sector with enormous challenges. Otherwise, I don't see any pressure on them to change (reduce their emissions). Some countries have policies that *encourage* transportation growth: the UK exempts jet fuel from VAT and other taxes.
Ron: I think it's time to review the questions for the Conference:
* What is the environmental impact of travel-related transportation -- Airlines, Bikes, Buses, Cars, Cruise Ships?
* How can transportation be made more eco-friendly?
* What are the best examples of eco-friendly transportation?
* What are best practices in terms of road building and trail construction?
* How do travel operators work with those in transportation to make travel more efficient for their clients?
Ron: If it's ok, let's go 1 by 1
Ron: What is the environmental impact of travel-related transportation?
Antonis: It varies from tramping (usually low) to private jet flight (high)
John: Antonis added an interesting category: private jets!
Antonis: they are "abominable" especially since I don't have one...

DRAWING A LINE

John: Let me tackle #1: I think we can draw a line separating global and local impacts. The CO2 problem is felt globally. Most of the other impacts (noise, pollution, habitat loss) are local, often near the destinations.
Antonis: or international and national impacts
Ron: I would add that as to local impact, we have a lot more research for impacts in the US, Canada, and Europe in contrast to limited information for places in Latin America, Africa, and Asia.
John: We're pretty good at methods to manage transportation impacts at destinations. We're less good at controlling the global impacts. Ron's correct about where the research has been conducted, but I think the results apply to a trail, for example, anywhere.
Ron: I agree with John that the results apply globally ... but I think we need to make clear that there is an information divide, which is something this conference could seek to change. For example, if we look at trails -- are there the appropriate resources en Español so that communities have a good understanding of their options?
Richard: when Ron talks about an information divide ... I think access to that information is key.
John: Ron raises a good question: (1) how do we get the information distributed, and (2) how do we encourage people to adopt best practices.
Ron: I'm a big fan of a group in Mexico -- Balam -- which works precisely on trail building with communities. For their work, they received the Colibri Award three years ago
Antonis: In relation to (2) most people are only touched by "cheaper", and "faster"
Ron: But most NGOs seem to operate under the idea that what works in the US and Canada can be copied directly elsewhere. It seems they are trying to prove something to their funders rather than the communities

FINANCING

Richard: Balam - which was started by who? with what funds? and with what training? These are the things that we have to look at in Nicaragua...it's good to say it's needed but to initiate it...that is the challenge.
Ron: Here's the URL for the article on BALAM, started by Antonio Suárez and Juan Carlos Ibarra:
http://www.planeta.com/ecotravel/mexico/balam/balam.html
Ron: Like many, they started a travel business and then became (gasp!) consultants. I'd add that what I most admire is that their work shows great results
John: Balam is the kind of delivery system I'd like to see replicated. ComarcaTurs may be one, too (I apologize that I don't know Richard's portfolio of projects).

PROCESS AND PRACTICE

John: I draw a distinction between the PROCESS to accomplish careful transport and the BEST PRACTICES. Balam does great process, and can often use BEST PRACTICES from research in the US or elsewhere.
Ron: John, I'm a bit unclear about your use of PROCESS and BEST PRACTICES but I won't argue the point.
Richard: But again, as consultants, they require $$$ and are limited to the number of jobs they can do (same problem we have here in Nicaragua) and limited to the number of projects they know about, that are starting up ... which is another problem we face...in Nicaragua...the sharing of information is extremely limited...intellectual property rights....
John: There might also be a role for national associations to lobby governments to include sustainable travel goals in national strategies.
Ron: How many national associations are actually interested in sustainability?
John: Richard raises a good point: the client must be willing to hire the enlightened consultants.
Antonis: How realistic is it to expect small projects like BALAM to have a significant effect in relation to international air travel?
Ron: Antonis' question is interesting ... but should we all be interested in all things?
Antonis: No, but to put in into perspective
Ron: Balam works with a tight budget and a tight set of priorities. I don't think international air travel is up there
Ron: That said, their on-the-ground work assisting communities in building trails is exceptional ... and something that few people had attempted. Remember, most investment $$$ has gone into building hotels, not trails. One of the lessons we learned from this summer's roundtable on Financing Sustainable Tourism in Mexico was that there are great amounts of $ to build cabins, even if there is no demand.
Richard: (head shaking)

THE DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD

Antonis: I think trails are a double-edged sword sometimes, you build a trail through the forest, the road follows. A too efficient system of transportation can be bad, as it allows for many more visitors.
Ron: Antonis, good point again! I'd make the case that what makes Chaco Canyon in the US a wonder is that they have not upgraded the gravel road, which limits the # of tourists.
Antonis: the Chinese have various National Parks with cement staircases going up mountains all the way to the top from 4 sides.
Ron: really?
Antonis: yes, I have seen amazing pictures in a presentation last year.
Richard: Volcan Mombacho, Nicaragua, is a best case - it has a GREAT trail system up at the top of the volcano, self interpretive, safe, enjoyable. Getting up to the summit, if you do not have an SUV, is in park transportation - diesel guzzling, exhaust - spewing, huge Russian-made truck that is called the Ecomovil because its painted green.
Ron: Antonis, agreed. I'm not saying all trails are good. And that's why we need to get the examples of best (and worst) case examples into the public arena
Ron: Transportation-related issues should be addressed at the travel trade conferences themselves and (I'd argue) with solutions being more the individual traveler can choose to give $ for tree planting.
Antonis: I agree, tree planting is a gimmick
Ron: As to tree planting, the idea is good ... but the skeptic in me wants to see how well the forests are maintained. Officials love to say how many trees are planted in x-campaign, but they don't disclose how many trees perish for lack of planning or care.
Antonis: or the trees are of the wrong type -- Eucalyptus for example.
John: Tree-planting projects are attractive to politicians: lots of potential to hire laborers, gain votes.
Richard: worst case - Volcan Masaya, Nicaragua - (though great for the disabled) two-lane paved road to the summit with giant parking lot beside crater.
Ron: best case - Zion National Park, US. Excellent system of transportation, including trails and shuttle buses
John: Another good example: Appalachian Trail (Maine to Georgia in the US). 3,000 km footpath
Ron: best case - san nicolas totolapan, mexico http://www.planeta.com/planeta/99/0599totolapan.html
Ron: Any other best or worst practices in terms of road building and trail construction?

IMPROVING THE ROAD

Antonis: I think there is a distinction between transport for protected areas, and transport for small eco-businesses
Richard: Antonis' earlier comment about efficient transportation systems is really key, I think it's extremely important.
Richard: Example - Chocoyero - the road in is horrible, and we want to improve it. Facilitating easy access will increase the tourism flow, since it is only 20 minutes from the capital...but will the increase exceed the limit that the park has set?? and if so, how do we then bring it back down to acceptable levels ( charging more, not allowing private transport, etc)
Ron: Richard, are there any studies of carrying capacity for the park?
Richard: in the Chocoyero office we have, not here though.
John: We've touched on Limits of Acceptable Change (LAC) where we define how much change (impact) a site can survive. Those techniques are studied and published. The challenge is getting people/government/agencies/communities/travelers to accept the limits.
Antonis: Ideally they should take part in determining the limits.
Ron: If any of these studies/documents are on-line, please write up a post and send to the greenride conference today ... I'll be happy to add a link from the conference center and/or the headlines page.
Antonis: The Egnatia Highway in Greece, was diverted underground so that it would not harm a bear habitat in N. Greece, last year
Ron: BTW, I am thinking that these examples should be fleshed out and posted in the conference. These are great examples! If we can gather the examples, we could think about fashioning a white paper of sorts perhaps using the November 5th discussion to focus that work
John: Antonis -- earlier were you differentiating between travel TO a destination and movement WITHIN a destination? Please explain a bit more
Antonis: Yes, but also, between public planning and private planning.
Another example is that WWF in Brazil is protesting the re-opening of a
road in Iguacu N. Park
Ron: The last question we've asked in the conference is: How do travel
operators work with those in transportation to make travel more efficient
for their clients?
Ron: Any ideas?
John: Well, here in California the kayak tour operators are all buying
those bright orange Hummers to carry people and kayaks.
Richard: (paint the hummers green and then its ecotourism)
John: Richard -- good idea! <grin> But I prefer Peter Maille's idea to
offer discounts to guests who arrive in fuel-efficient vehicles or by
car-pooling.
Ron: Great idea! Where did he post that?
John: I'm not sure if Peter has started the policy or not, but that was
his proposal.
Antonis: We have a Spanish Ecolodge (on http://www.ecoclub.com) that also offers discounts to people arriving by public transport.
Ron: As to hummers ... and playing devil's advocate, a friend reported
seeing a hummer with a bumpersticker reading "I'm an environmentalist" and she laughed.
Ron: But isn't any 'environmentalist' bumpersticker an oxymoron? That said, I'm worried that if we promote eco-purism rather than eco-tourism, nobody will be going anywhere.
Richard: agreed.
Antonis: no, they would just ignore us.
Ron: well, let's give them something to talk about!
John: That's my concern with "Think Globally, Travel Locally" -- a conscientious traveler would walk/bike/rail to their next travel destination, not fly.
Ron: yes, all 12 of them
Antonis: ha ha
Antonis: realistically, we have to wait for solar aircraft, if that is realistic.
John: The challenge is major MAJOR improvements in CO2 emissions in every other sector of the economy IF we hope to reduce the impact of transport.
Richard: That's what we must accomplish though, the happy medium where the tourist is still receiving quality service/product, while traveling "more sustainably" either 1) by their own conscious decision or 2) they don't even realize it...and I'd argue that for Nicaragua, 2) will be much easier to accomplish - that is - one of the goals being increasing tourism to the areas that we work in.
Antonis: And we should not forget that trade (freight) also moves by air, about equal in weight to human air travel.
Ron: speaking of unrealistic propositions ... if you haven't already, please print the conference center page and show it to others who visit your office or whom you visit

IMAGINING ALTERNATIVES

Antonis: We also need imagination. Five years ago, riding the bus in Athens was free before 08:30 in the morning, it worked, then for some reason it stopped.
John: I still have this dream that national ecotourism associations would lobby their governments for more sustainable practices, regulations, rules, and strategies.
Ron: John -- who would do this?!
John: Groups like the Ecuador Ecotourism Assoc, or the Belize group.
Ron: It would be interesting to see a review of the associations ... most are paper organizations. Don't get me wrong ... there are some great people but most of the groups spend their time fighting against each other. Those that have integrity usually don't have $ resources. When they get $, it's not to do what their members want but rather to comply with an international or donor agenda.
Richard: wow...and all I had was a dream for a national ecotourism association...
Antonis: ecotourism associations are not the best advocates for this purpose. Environmentalists are in far better position to pressure.
Richard: Environmentalists where? Here in Nicaragua (and I could argue in Ecuador too) the awareness hasn't reached that level!
John: Oh, I have other dreams for these national groups, too... <sigh>
Richard -- I agree. Many are still trying to figure out if they can use ecotourism as a cash cow. But we need to keep the dialogue open on these other aspects, too.
Richard: I wasn't thinking just about ecotourism, I was thinking about being environmentally aware.
John: Richard -- well, that's the dream I have for national environmental funds (as conveners of the national dialogue about environmental strategies).
Ron: We have to work with what we have ... that means taking smaller steps. I have good relations with Mexico and Ecuador's groups, but most of the associations in Central America were created with USAID funds and didn't last for more than 18 months.
Antonis: It's all about politics in the end, who funds whom, and what other friends they have.
Ron: One solution is what we are doing here ... working beyond national boundaries and providing some meaningful examples of what does and doesn't work.

11.05.2003

NEWS

Ron: The "Expo Ecoturismo" in Venezuela last week was a big success. It
was my first trip [to Venezuela] and I was sorry I could not stay longer
Marcus: Bom dia from Fortaleza, Ceara, northeast Brazil... via dialup....
Richard: Nice essay you posted to the conference, John, thoroughly enjoyed it.
Ron: John, excellente!
John: Thanks. I am sorry it took me so long to post a summary from
the book. My apologies.
Richard: Richard Tuck here, Director of an NGO run program for Sustainable Tourism Development in Nicaragua...the weather here...hot and sunny...maybe I'll skip the chat and head to the beach....on my bike!

Black_Sheep: we at the BSI are building a retaining wall which will lead to a new eco laundry area that uses roof water, recycles grey water, and will support solar panels for electricity for half our property

John_Shores: BSI: How easy is it to get PV panels? And maintain them at your elevation (UV?)?
Black_Sheep: Our elevation means more efficiency for producing
electricity, but panels are expensive here [in Ecuador].

DISCUSSION

Ron: As an agenda, I propose we try to focus on the topic at hand - transportation We've had an excellent dialogue and I'd like to get some feedback from you folks on how you found the discussion and where we take this topic in 2004. If there are any other items you'd like to discuss, by all means, that's fine: just drop a quick note now and say what's on your mind. The chief side topic for me is the bug-a-boo ertification ...and I'll be posting my powerpoint presentation online soon and would
suggest that Antonis host a certification-specific chat in the future
Antonis: Can we work on a brief common position to announce it as a result of this conference. I mean take the initial topics one by one, and each one take rounds with their views...
Ron: Sounds good
Black_Sheep: come up with a conclusion?
Antonis: I am saying that it would be nice to produce a summary at the end of the conference, and possibly we can start
deciding on which points will go in, during this chat
Ron: A summary is a great start, and that's where the edited dialogue comes in to play. We could put out a media release next week -- explaining the dimensions of the topics we discussed in this event
Black_Sheep: for me this conference has been good because I have learned
things and opened my eyes to issues that I had not focused
on before ... but transportation issues touch on the HUGE world issues of
fossil fuel use... not an easy topic
John: BSI -- Can you mention one or two useful issues from the
conference? What had meaning for you? What resonated?
Black_Sheep: Air transport, carbon emissions, eco trail building - I feel
that the tourism sector in general ignores air transport
because it is the transport that keeps international tourism alive

WHAT DID WE LEARN?

Ron: And going to John's question ... I learned two things from this event -- how communities are improving greenways,
particularly in Europe and Mexico ... and the practicalities expressed by BSI
Black_Sheep: It would be great if this conference could help bring these issues to the forefront at trade events and policy meetings...
Ron: and then it's a matter of seeing how we can get transportation to be discussed in depth at major trade events/policy meetings
Antonis: As they relate to sustainable tourism? Or more generally about sustainable transport?
Ron: Well ... it would be good to make a powerpoint .... it's the way
I've gotten issues from previous events to the table
Sergio: Maybe I missed something. Some days ago I've sent a e-mail and unfortunately I had no comments about it. I would like to
know which are the main topics discussed in the conference until now.

TREES

Marcus: Nature protection is not enough anymore. We need rehabilitation, habitat restoration, trees, more trees need to be planted....
Ron: At the risk of making a simple statement -- trees are good ... but
many of the reforestation efforts are flops.
As to restoration ... agreed 100%
Antonis: or irrelevant (reforestation efforts)
Marcus: http://www.treesfortravel.nl
Marcus: http://www.clickarvore.com.br ... click to plant trees in
Brazil....
Ron: Marcus, how are these tree planting programs evaluated?
Antonis: does click and plant really work?
Marcus: As far as I know each tree needs a contract for lifetime care,
nurseries are privatized for motivation, some support may
come from IADB....Charter flights can aid economic sustainability by
allowing it to become somewhat less dependent on the vagaries
of the airline corporations....

MORE THAN AIR TRAVEL

Sergio: I am not sure if we need to keep discussing 'air transportation' in this forum.
John: Sergio -- what other transport issues seem important to you?
Sergio: the connection between land use and transportation, new models or patterns to run travel/tourism in the nature....anybody know the UK experience? Sustrans is a good site. I don't believe we have competence to inquire or analyze issues regarding air transportation. It is a very complex argument,
which involve several stakeholders, wide range economic problems,
technology and scientific researches, etc?
Antonis: Another good site is http://www.uitp.com
Marcus: Charter flights, organizing incoming charters is a way for destinations to work around current airline downsizing....
John: Marcus -- But do you see a small operation like the Black Sheep Inn participating in charters?
John: I'd like to hear Sergio's input on the local planning issues, and
Marcus' input on how charters would help destinations.
Sergio: Ok, I will send something in this week. For me, the only way to reach the preservation of natural and rural areas and provide sustainable transportation and health development to them is through an implementation of a regional master plan,discussed to the communities, politicians, landowners, private and public agencies, tourist operators, and other stakeholders
Ron: a more holistic approach?
Sergio: yes, a more interactive approach.....
Antonis: but more dependent on the vagaries of mass tourism tour operators?
Ron: This is one of the issues we don't discuss much in public -- the
vagaries of airline corporations and how difficult they make competition for charters
Antonis: charters are no panacea, I can tell you, living in Greece.
Marcus: Tourism is business, without business there is no tourism, economic sustainability needs to be taken in to any consideration.

John: We have the classical example of "snow birds" using charters to get to Cancun from the frozen north. But that plays to mass tourism.
Antonis: charter seats tend to be even more subsidised (cheaper) than regular airline seats, how do you square this, with environmental sustainability?
Ron: Question for John ... can the "masses" want to travel and travel as green as possible?

THINK GLOBALLY, TRAVEL LOCALLY

John: "Think globally, travel locally" is one way to go green. One challenge is how to green the larger tourism business (especially regarding transport) without disrupting fragile economies and populations. Our joke in New England was to tell the would-be tourists: "Don't come visit, just send money!"
Marcus: I like the organic food comparison for the de-industrialization of tourism, health focused....What good is boutique tourism if the broader society around is not sustainable itself?
Ron: Excellent point, Marcus
John: Marcus, I think that is Sergio's point exactly. The whole system has to begin to make environmental and economic sense.
Sergio: And social sense too. Here we came back to the interactivities.
Ron: Agreed -- though the social sense better include tourists! Too often these models ignore the travelers themselves
Antonis: the system always makes sense. But we want to change the system
Sergio: for instance, the gas station problem mentioned by Andreas and Michele at Black Sheep Inn [see the conference dialogue on http://www.planeta.com for the relevant messages]. Even though a Gasoline/Petrol Station should be a great help to people to reach remote areas, its operation would trigger several problems concerning sustainable transportation.
Marcus: Further economic shock therapy should be avoided whenever possible. I've been thinking lately that the word "tourist" is somehow too often pejorative. I prefer to say "people traveling" ....
Richard: I have not participated in the conference (other than the last chat session) because I do not have the experience in the transportation field, that being said, I have learned a great deal.....
Sergio: The problem is not the Gas Station itself, but the economic, social, and political context that allows or does not allow different activities to be developed in determinate areas.
Richard: My view is that I do not have the abilities to confront the issues of airlines, so I'm in agreement with Sergio in that we should not concentrate on that issue
Richard: For me, in Nicaragua, information about finding the right level of sustainability in an area is much more important. When we discuss improved roadways to protected areas, we need to look at effects, and those effects are not all positive, increased mobility for locals, increased access to eco-tourism, but also increased noise pollution, expending capacities for parking lots, etc.....Through what I've learned from this conference, I'm disappointed at the politicians and aid organizations that ONLY advertise the positive and do NOT confront the negative in attempts to minimize it.
Marcus: Ticabus ... from Mexico to Panama....
Black_Sheep: development should not automatically mean degradation of the environment.
Sergio: Yes Andrea, because of that, must be a development plan even for small villages and natural areas! And transportation and accessibility is always the backbone of the plan
Richard: In a LOT of what I read from John Shores, you totally agree - as it makes sense. But you also have to take the reality of the situation where many people do not have the comforts of living in the US.
John: Richard -- Can you be more specific? I'm not following your point... (help!)
Richard: riding your bike to work
Richard: Nicaragua everything from too dangerous to no bikes....hinders that many times.
Ron: Locally, I am in touch with folks in Oaxaca who are building bike paths where the train used to run

ECO TRAVEL

Marcus: How many bicycle travelers to you need to fill your lodge, and how far can they go from New York in two weeks vacation??
Antonis: The reply to Marcus is: Why should they come from New York?
John: Richard -- Agreed, but countries that embrace bicycles make progress (China, India, Netherlands, ...)
John: And I think Sergio's plans would include bicycles as well as public transport.
Black_Sheep: Altitude makes biking difficult here, but it could use more promotion
Richard: John - there are more bikes in the canals of Amsterdam than on the roads (hahaha) but seriously, as I was saying to Antonis before this chat started, Nicaraguans are just starting to camp.
Antonis: why are Nicaraguans starting to camp?
Richard: before they just didn't [camp], now in the protected areas, you can rent tents, we have started enviro -Camps.....these are little steps...awareness.

THE OIL AGE

Antonis: The Economist magazine had on its cover last week: "The end of the Oil Age"
Ron: !!
John: The Earthscan books I reviewed cite estimates that oil as we know it will be over by 2050.
Antonis: "The stone age did not end for lack of stone, and the oil age will end long before the world runs out of oil"
Marcus: Australia and Brazil have many natural gas vehicles on the road. Brazil also has many 100% alcohol cars on the road. Brazil is also exploring biodiesel production....
Marcus: I agree, we are now seeing an explosion in intra-Asian travel -- for example between China and India and Thailand. Okay, so forget the US traveler....
Ron: One of the problems I had writing my Mexico guidebook was finding businesses that rented bikes. More attention is given to competitions, not the ability to bike

NEXT STEPS

Ron: Next step is closing the conference ... which I suggest we do this week. Then writing up the summary and soliciting comments from participants. The topics/issues raised have been first rate ... and I agree with Richard that many are reluctant to address the issue as it means confronting some negative problems
Ron: I'd argue we should make small steps -- after a person flies into a destination, what are their greenest transport options? Do the buses/trains welcome bike transport? Are there bike ways? Is their bike rental?
Sergio: in San Francisco Bay Area you can travel with your bike every where - buses and trains allow bicycles on-board and have proper racks for them. The greenways "fashion" is increasing mobility to rural areas
Richard: I agree with Ron....what I need are small steps....
Black_Sheep: every detail matters and making the details transparent and public helps
Ron: BSI, agreed!
Black_Sheep: we are going to start giving discounts to cyclists, but advertising that will increase the awareness to the non cyclists too
Marcus: Interesting, I like that idea, rewarding, discounts, pocketbook....
Ron: What we're talking about is acknowledging and rewarding ethical behavior
Black_Sheep: and letting people know that ethical behavior exists
Ron: I think we don't choose the green options because we don't know they exist
Black_Sheep: we offer high-altitude unicycling here...FREE
John: One of my worries when I see new "routes" in the marketing literature (Ruta Maya, Paseo Pantera, Inca Trail) is that these strategies seem to rely on ever more TRANSPORT instead of encouraging traveler Marcus' travelers to stay in an area and get to know the people and the place.
Marcus: Artificial schemes (routes) and arbitrary regions are a dime a dozen, and do any really work??
Ron: Marcus, do they work? Well, they work ... for the marketers! The NGOs got a lot of money for Paseo Pantera ... though it didn't do much for the communities or ecosystems
Antonis: too much mobility is equally problematic
Richard: which is something that isn't advertised in the developing world ( re Antonis)
John: Mobility grows with disposable income. The poor subsidize the speed dreams of the rich.
Antonis: you can argue that very poor people (immigrants) are also very mobile
Ron: Thank you, Antonis for pointing that out. About 1/5th of Oaxaca's population is in the US ... and it's not because these are the rich Oaxacans
John: But many of the poor immigrants are not using air travel to get there.
Ron: Many are using it to come back.
Marcus: Globalization, cultural confrontation, class issues, Marxism all over again?
Antonis: Ford is an environmentalist no?
Marcus: Ford Foundation is behind certification?
Antonis: ha ha sob sob
Ron: For the past half dozen years
John: Henry Ford 1st was not much of an environmentalist. His dream of every family in the US having a car was the beginning of the end.
Marcus: Individualism will not die soon...
Black_Sheep: not here...
Sergio: What is more eco? A group of mass tourists going to visit Paris or 40 SUV driving into a forest anywhere?
Marcus: If the destination is nature, it must be eco?
Sergio: ok.. which is more environmentally sensitive?
Marcus: Group travel = mass tourism , no?
John: I argue that if the IMPACT is pro-environment, it must be ECO. So mass transit to a green Paris hotel could easily be more green.
Black_Sheep: as much as i learned in this conference I found it difficult, because the issues are completely across the society in general
Ron: Rephrasing something John has said before ... as travelers become more environmentally aware, they will be less gullible in purchasing claims that their visit to far-off destinations can be eco
Richard: Regarding Ron's gullibility of eco-travelers....these people still travel, not because its eco, but because of the destination (culture, biodiversity, etc)
Black_Sheep: People come here to hike, not just poop in our eco-toilets
Antonis: Cities are the most environmentally efficient parts of the world, the problem is that they keep expanding Sergio: great Antonis...I agree 100%
Black_Sheep: Antonis, really? efficient?
John: Antonis -- maybe smaller cities. A subsistence farmer is really pretty green...
Marcus: Africa is not behind, it is ahead. In many places the lifestyle is still green.

URBAN ECOTOURISM

Antonis: If we measure natural resource consumption per capita, I think cities are better
Sergio: the urban sprawl is the biggest environmental problem we have to face today.
John: Antonis -- I have trouble seeing how to feed, cloth, shelter, and warm a large city in a green way.
Black_Sheep: city people usually have very little awareness of where the resources come from that they are consuming... (I am generalizing, of course)
Marcus: City people need nature. Nature people often need city cultural life.
Antonis: I was in Bucharest two years ago, all city dwellings have free heat from natural gas.
John: Natural gas contributes to climate change. Free energy encourages waste.
Antonis: In relation to natural gas, I believe it has far lower emissions, it burns better, but I will check.
John: I didn't claim that subsistence farming is any fun.
Black_Sheep: public transport always works better in cities as there is more constant demand and therefore lower prices
Antonis: Treating waste, is more efficient in cities where all blocks are linked together
Ron: Promo ... Planeta will host an online conference on urban ecotourism in 2004. Anyone who'd like to come on board as a co-sponsor is most welcome ... and a quick thank you again to Antonis and john for coming on board as co-sponsors of the transportation conference. These chats on ECOCLUB have been particularly helpful.
Marcus: urban ecotourism, good one!
Marcus: Ultimately nature is the most esthetic experience. In the end culture by definition is artificial. Where did you say Bush stands on Amtrak? [Amtrak is the national passenger rail system in the US, which requires federal subsidies to survive]
Ron: Should we try to wrap this up in the next 20 minutes?
Marcus: Do we have a conclusion? Viva Brasil!
Black_Sheep: I think the dialogue had many good points
Ron: Great!
John: Marcus asked if we could reach a conclusion...
Ron: Good question
Antonis: Are we optimistic, realistic, or pessimistic?
Black_Sheep: we are opti real and pessi !!!
Ron: I could not be more pleased. This has been a terrific dialogue.
Richard: I like the idea of Planeta (or whom ever) having a power point to bring attention to this topic at conventions and such.
Ron: One thing we can do is share the powerpoint presentation, adapt it to local needs
John: I want to thank everyone here for sharing their perspectives. I approach things as a scientist more than a policy wonk. It's GREAT to get the additional perspectives.
Ron: This week I'll be posting the presentations on ecotourism marketing, certification and ngos in tourism and conservation to the relevant groups
Sergio: I am an optimist on one hand. There are several experiences around the world that show possibilities to make transportation more environmentally sensitive, but I am a pessimist on the other hand because is not easy to change the consumist way of life of the occidental culture.
Ron: Sergio, good point
Sergio: maybe in another 500 years...

CLOSING REMARKS

Ron: I'd ask participants to send a quick note to the conference itself fleshing out any points/questions you've raised in the chat. And I'd also ask that you keep an eye on the conference page and dialogue. Feedback is always welcome. I think we'll look back at this event in 5 years and be very satisfied with the questions we brought to the table
Black_Sheep: Thanks every one and we will surely see each other on line...
John: Once again, thanks to all of you.
Ron: Antonis, thanks for hosting the chat
Antonis: Thank you, Ron
Sergio: Thank you everybody. Nice to talk to you today. Have a nice day.
Black_Sheep: Ciao
Antonis: Bye and thanks!