Antonis B. Petropoulos founded ECOCLUB,
the International Ecotourism Club in 1999, and has seen it
develop into an award-winning network for ecological Tourism with
members in more than 80 countries.
The main aim of ECOCLUB -- http://www.ecoclub.com
-- is to promote genuine Ecotourism, which it defines as a movement
to make all tourism more ecological.
ECOCLUB has been a co-sponsor of some of Planeta.com's most lively
online conferences, including Urban
Ecotourism, NGOs
in Tourism and Conservation, Rural
Tourism and the Environmental
Impact of Transportation. We have also collaborated with real-time
chats and the development of a collaborative collaborative
white paper focusing on Ecuador.
This year for World
Tourism Day (September 27) Antonis issued a declaration
to his members focusing on the new challenges: "The broad
Ecotourism movement, has reached a crossroad, and must pick the
correct path in order to maintain its freshness, relevance, coherence
and raise its voice and power. An Ecotourism 2.0, confident and
outward-looking, with political power, with a clear ecological
message, internationalist, pacifist, making full use of the internet
and direct democracy."
Thank you, Antonis, for taking part in this conversation.
Thank you very much for honouring me with this invitation to the
holy e-grounds of Ecotourism that is Planeta! The opportunities
that the Internet has opened up are endless. In the case of Tourism
it has levelled the playing-field, allowing eco practitioners
and enthusiasts to compete with giants, and occasionally beat
them! In this case, it will enable us (and the readers) to compare
notes, while sitting around 11,300 kilometers apart (says google
earth), and without emitting - or having to offset a single ton
of CO2 in the process.
The 'holy e-grounds of Ecotourism that is Planeta!'
-- you're too kind! Antonis, could you please introduce yourself
to Planeta readers. Also, let us know what inspired you to create
and maintain ECOCLUB.
Well, this side of the pond, and in our greek egalitarian culture,
when someone is talking about themselves, people switch off. In
any case, since you asked, and to the extent relevant for context,
ECOCLUB was a result of a gradual and constantly evolving process
and a realization that at age 30, at the turn of the century,
after studying economics, finance and history, working in shipping
and in the world capital that is London, I still wanted (and still
want) 'to change the world' (in a peaceful, pleasant and eco manner),
as well as to see the world. I also thought that I could not and
should not try to do it alone. I had working experience of international
networks and had followed this incredible new invention, the Internet
from very early days. I had also stumbled upon 'Ecotourism' both
in my travels in the 1990s, and online, in Planeta.com and Ecotourism.org.
Equally important was my early appreciation of nature and eco
travel, since elementary school, when on most Sundays I used to
hike five hours with my father and his old friends from the army,
in the national park of Parnitha overlooking Athens.
Unfortunately a great part burned this summer.
I did not try to reinvent any old wheels, but to use this new
Internet wheel, to work within the system – any system -
to reach and assist those at the bottom of the tourism ecosystem,
by matching practical needs with theories, and personal interests
with ideas.
And there is nothing new under the sun: following Epicurus, I
tried to loosely model ECOCLUB after the Epicurean Garden. (I
also chose the same city as a basis probably because I was born
and love it here, but indirectly also making a point that not
all international networks need to be based in the usual geopolitical
and financial centres.) So, everyone is welcome to our virtual
garden, from all walks of life, from every corner of the earth,
as long as they share our philosophy and conduct themselves in
a respectful manner. Members are expected to cover the cost of
the garden's upkeep in the form of a modest fee, so as to help
it maintain its integrity and independence.
As far as maintaining, simply maintaining something is not enough,
it needs constant improvement and evolution or else it dies. In
the case of ECOCLUB it is still very far from where it should,
can and hopefully will be. Those interested in its progress so
far, can see about
ECOCLUB for some of our milestones.
Thank you, Antonis. I like your idea that "not all
international networks need to be based in the usual geopolitical
and financial centres." That belief certainly has inspired
Planeta.com as well. I agree with your Towards Ecotourism 2.0
statement that 'the broad Ecotourism movement, has reached a crossroad.'
What I have seen in the five years since 2002 is a growing consumer
awareness matched at every turn by slick sales pitches and a growing
superficiality of the ideals once matched with ecotourism.
I'm wary of the celebrity ecotourism stories and international
conferences that do not include pre- and post-event online dialogue.
We see little accountability and transparency from donors and
international development banks. And the word from ground operators
is that state and national governments are talking the talk but
not doing much to support ecotourism. Should we be cynical or
is it time to be creative and bold? Do you have any reactions
or recommendations?
I am a great fan of etymology, the meaning and uses of words.
Some people roll their eyes when they hear about the need for
clear definitions, still I believe this is very important as laws
and civilisation itself are based on words. In earlier times people
used to communicate by cries, moans and the like. We need clear
words, clear expressions, clear thinking.
Therefore, let me distance myself from the expression 'growing
consumer awareness'. I do not believe in ecotourism 'products'
so I do not believe in ecotourism 'consumers' either. I am thinking
in terms of hosts, guests, thinking, emancipated citizens. I am
thinking in terms of heads, hearts and minds, not pockets. We
should be weary of casually adopting the neo-liberal vocabulary,
or be afraid that if we dare speak in plain English, plain Spanish,
or plain Greek, rather than in 'consultantese' or 'bureaucratese'
the powers that be will classify us as outsiders. They are, and
should remain, the outsiders to Ecotourism.
In terms of your complaints about lack of accountability, the
role of banks and the like, this is a reality – this is
how the world, and the world of tourism operates, and this world
has to and can be changed – I believe it is possible from
within, and in a constructive and pleasant manner. So, if we are
to change it from within, we have no excuses – we need to
engage, demand, press - trick even – rather than trade off
our ecological ideals for some fleeting 15 minutes of fame. At
the same time, we have to pursue our own – truly alternative
things, to - as they say - 'be the change we want to see'. And
let the mainstream come to us, not vice versa.
The tour operators you mention are only part of the equation.
Change also requires political action, we can not just rely on
tourism market forces.
At the very least, we should not try to ape the mainstream, or
try to behave as a shivering cat meowing outside the window, looking
at the rich feast inside, and waiting for some leftovers to be
thrown out.
So let's be bold, creative and cynical. Cynicism is a lot closer
to Ecology than many people realize. A quick search in wikipedia
will reveal that the Athenian Philosopher Diogenes the Cynic,
- allegedly the first person to use the term 'cosmopolitis' or
citizen of the whole world - has a lot to teach us against the
current onslaught of consumerism, the creation of false needs.
Ecotourism is all about meeting real needs, of hosts and guests
alike.
Today the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to Al Gore and
the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. What is your
view of global warming and what are your suggestions for the direction
tourism leaders ought to pursue to lessen the environmental impact
of transportation? Are you a fan of carbon offsetting?
The man 'who used to be the next president of the United States'
is the best public speaker I have ever heard live, when he spoke
to an enthusiastic auditorium, which fortunately included leading
politicians, in Athens in mid-June. Our prime-minister even promised
- it was election time - to distribute for free his book to elementary
school children.
The Nobel Peace prize, for lack of an environmental Nobel (why?),
I hope will be a boost for his presidential campaign in 4 or 8
years. I also hope that if he wins and becomes the first 'green'
president, he will succeed in passing and enforcing much-needed
environmental laws and international laws. (green talk is cheap,
we need green action Mr Gore!). A green president will hopefully
also be less trigger-happy and more pacifist, wars also being
a major ecological catastrophe.
My view of global warming? I am not a climatologist, so I leave
it to scientists: many, but not all, experts believe that climate
change is indeed happening and most of these attribute it to human
factors. It is also good to remember that the world climate naturally
fluctuates between ice ages - the last one ended just 10,000 years
ago, so we have been experiencing global warming ever since, no?
I also approach pollution from the health and the human rights
perspective. Dirty air, dirty water, kill people every day, especially
poor ones. There are still ONE BILLION people without access to
clean drinking water (2.6 billion without proper sanitation),
and millions more of us thinking we are drinking 'clean' water
from the tap - in fact a transparent, cancer-causing pesticide
and chemicals cocktail.
And my question is: Can you OFFSET dirty water? (free of charge
idea to eager offsetters). Not really. What should you do? Clean
it. Prevent it from being dirty. I do not see why it should be
different with air. But this will not happen through the invisible
hand of the market. Can you imagine privatizing the fire brigade?
.'Your house is on fire, sir, however you are not a subscriber
to our 'annual fire fighting plan 3000' , sorry.' Now, think of
your house as our planet.
Carbon Offsetting is a nice sounding way of describing Pollution
Trading. Polluting countries (and their favourite big business)
are given licences to pollute ('emission credits') - one wonders
who is morally or legally entitled to hand out these absolution
notes - up to their 1990 air pollution levels, where one credit
equals one ton of CO2. In theory, whoever can pay, can pollute.
In practice, it pays to pollute as the price of CO2 is ridiculously
low, rather than to clean up their act. Hot air capitalism crashed
during take off.
This is not a problem for some however, as they are in the business
of making money, be it sacks of potatoes trading, football player
trading or carbon trading. What should tourism practitioners and
academics do?
Imho, they should waste no time studying or applying gimmicks
offered by unaccountable, unregulated, self-appointed purveyors
of hot air licences, but press political parties and movements
so that they exercise real pressure to airplane and car manufacturers
to introduce cleaner technologies, while at the same time subsidizing
and greatly expanding public transport (buses, trains, tram, underground).
A great responsibility also rests with major airline companies.
They have the financial clout to press airline manufacturers for
greener aircraft. Airline travel should also be subsidized, rather
than penalized, but as long as it applies the latest environmental
technology.
As for tourists, they should keep travelling – using greener
options when available - and supporting remote communities, who
should not be the victims of a shallow, hypocritical fixation
on climate change – the world has many other pressing social
and environmental problems.
It is not just ecologists, "loonies" and fringe elements
that are uneasy about carbon offsets and voluntary emission targets...
Check out this blog post, by none other than the E.U. Environment
Commissioner, Stavros Dimas: Voluntary
Emission Targets Do Not Work.
It seems we are on the same course as 'ecotourism certification'
with proponents and critics at loggerheads and without the avenues
for engaging dialogue. The result - donors will likely push for
a top-down strategy and the opportunities for public engagement
will be lost. Do you have any suggestions of how the topic of
the environmental impact of transportation could be discussed
online and at natural world events in 2008?
Also, what are other key issues that you'd like to see discussed
and acted upon in the coming year?
We need:
- less of the distracting, carbon-offsetting hype.
- more subsidies to greatly expand public transport and make it
appealing, competitive and affordable, and
- a combination of pressure and incentives to airplane and automobile
manufacturers to research and apply cleaner technologies.
This is a vast topic, and for any discussions – online or
offline – to be able to produce meaningful results, rather
than regurgitate what people have heard or read, the topic must
be very focused, both thematologically and geographically, and
involve the participation of decision-makers and transport experts.
I am a big fan of discussion, reason and debate (especially if
accompanied by a beer) rather than dogma, and there are a number
of general discussions currently running at our own forum, including
one about Hunting Tourism…Beyond general discussions and
debates on which we can forever agree or disagree however, I would
like to see local action and real change. I have come to realize
– but not necessarily accept - that not all who are attracted
to Ecotourism, especially as it becomes more popular, are keen
to change things, some seem to believe that conservatism and conservation
are twins. It is also true that few people really understand how
the world works, few of these few really want to change it, and
few of the few of the few have the means to do it. (No wonder
it changes so slowly.). So in most cases we can only look at the
small picture, and break it down to its basic elements, or in
other words, go back to basics: we gradually need to put every
aspect of tourism infrastructure and operation under the microscope,
and see how it can become ecological, more environmentally and
socially beneficial, just, ethical.
We need to hear from practitioners and academics of what, where
and who is blocking progress in each case, and - hopefully - unblock
it.
Many in mainstream Tourism speak of the need for quality, quality
of service, about being able to charge a higher price, maximize
profit. In my dictionary, real quality is the quality of life,
for all beings on this planet, beyond the mock villages of 'corporate
social responsibility'. We need to ignore the sirens, and maximize
life, not profit.
Thus in 2008, I would like to see all genuine advocates of Ecotourism,
move towards a deeper, more philosophical, more ecological, activist
and political Ecotourism 2.0, rather than risk being swallowed
by the priorities of the mainstream, corporate agenda.
I would ask you to read the essay by Clay Skirky: Ontology
is Overrated: Categories, Links, and Tags. Do we need to define
'ecotourism'? Your thoughts?
I have quickly read this article and the author, an internet and
computer specialist, appears indifferent to the fact that the
greek word 'Ontology' ('on' = being + 'logos' = word/reason) is,
er, a lot older than the Internet, and forms the foundation of
ancient as well as modern Philosophy, as well as for many aspects
of everyday life. Ontology can certainly not be reduced to a categorization
exercise for librarians or their internet colleagues, so that
it can be proven 'overrated' as this article, unsuccessfully,
attempts to do.
For the past 10 years, I have understood and defined Ecotourism
as Ecological Tourism. I write it with a capital 'E', and I consider
it as part of a broad movement to change Tourism. Definitions
matter, words matter, policy matters, laws matter.
If someone believes Definitions do not matter, they can try searching
a library where books are piled up on the floor and have no names.
Or live in a scary society where instead of clearly defined laws,
that citizens can vote on, you have a series of digits, only comprehensible
by hand-held machines / (search engines?) that intepret the laws
and tell you 'yes' and 'no'.
Definitions clarify issues and empower citizens (so that they
can amend definitions and laws). Fuzziness creates complacency,
elitism, inaction and dependency.
Good points. I agree that we need to have definitions,
but what if we do not share a common language, particularly those
developing tourism and those practicing it? I have yet to find
anyone in Oaxaca seeking 'ecotourism' and it makes no sense to
promote what is offered by using words visitors themselves do
not recognize. That's why I am a big fan of the 'tagging' revolution
and the new toys employed by Web 2.0. As to your example of a
library where books are piled up on a floor, check out the video
The
Machine is Us/ing Us on YouTube.
As to the 'Machine' video, nicely done and meaningful if over-enthusiastic
(and a good ad for the university course)
as like all tools, technology is a double-edged sword. Perhaps
an alternative title would be "The Machine is Watching Us
(but hey, we are too many).
How do you see the development of Web 2.0? Is ECOCLUB
using Google Earth and other new web tools? Do you have any new
features which will be launched in the coming year?
Web 2.0 ? I maintain an eclectic / critical attitude. Web 1.0
still has a lot to offer, for example there are wonderful forums
like the planeta one, much more useful and unifying than some
of the confusing, opaque, fractionating and over-individualistic
tools peddled in the context of Web 2.0.
When it comes to things such as maps, yes, I very much welcome
the various competing services - there are over a dozen besides
the one you mentioned. But I caution everyone not to be overjealous
with placing all their life, friends, business associates and
secrets online, big brother 2.0 (not to mention marketeers) is
watching you!
We always examine new features and possibilities but in this competitive
era we prefer to announce them after they have been successfully
tested and applied. Our focus these days is on Ecotourism 2.0,
rather than Web 2.0. The Web is just a tool. I want to point towards
Ecological Tourism, and I do not want people to look at my finger.
Thanks, Antonis. Can you expound on where you believe
ecotourism 2.0 is heading?
I am not the Oracle at Delphi, or at least an impartial or detached
observer, I would rather tell you where I would like Ecotourism
to head to. I have always understood Ecotourism as a Movement
for Ecological Tourism, and thus left a promising, mainstream
and well-paid career, to take part in this movement, not to make
a quick buck. Some people may wish to move in the precisely opposite
direction, no problem, don't follow them, just let them go.
I would like Ecotourism to reconnect with its ecological, green
roots, and move away from the shallow, plastic-fantastic, CSR'ed,
triple-bottom-lined, double-hull, carbon-offsetted, 'responsible',
standardized, mainstream. From the over-individualistic, self-satisfying,
self-achieving, egotistical, exclusive, high-flying and glossy
award-winning to the involved, communal, emancipating, empowering,
down to earth, muddy.
From legalese, bureaucratese, consultantese jargon and complexity,
to plain and straight-talking, and simplicity. From oligarchy,
to direct democracy and autonomy - political and financial. From
the apolitical to the political. From an environmental pretext
for tourism business as usual and conservatism of all sorts, to
a green, peaceful, smiling, epicurean movement for progressive
change, human rights, animal rights and the environment, in tourism
and beyond.
Finally, what recommendations would you offer eco travelers
visiting Greece?
Going to your next question, about my home country, I would
give the same advice that I would give to myself for any other
place: Educate yourself before you travel. Do your homework. When
I was living in London, a plumber who had come to my house, heard
my annoying accent and asked me which country I was from, and
then I asked him if he had ever been there (three million of his
compatriots do every year, the vast majority on cheap packaged
1-week charter tours.) He replied that no, he had not been to
Greece, but he had only been to Spain and Corfu.... Corfu of course
is not a country, it is a part of ...Greece. I also remember the
fazed faces of my work colleagues, who had all travelled to Greece
in similar fashion, when I explained that in winter, it actually
snows in 'exotic' Greece (it can go to minus 10 in some areas).
These anecdotes shows what is wrong with most of our mass tourism
resorts. Little character, what's left from the steam roller,
the concrete and the booze.
Our tourism authorities are also to blame for their course of
(in)action over the last 30 years. A Martian looking at our brochures
and advertisements (before attacking) would think Greece is an
archipelago of quaint, tiny islands with whitewashed houses, on
deep blue, with ancient marbles thrown here and there. (good thing
he would go attack elsewhere).
Early this year, I participated in the evaluation of a new tourism
promotion plan for Greece, through which for the first time, we
will may get to show some variety, of course not some of the things
I proposed, which had another team member, senior bureaucrat,
gasping for air.
For genuine Ecotourism, we need informed ecotravellers. Quality
guidebooks are a start, but are not enough - some merely and inadvertently
reproduce cliches, or the mood of the writer at the time of writing.
In the time of the Internet, you can literally immerse yourself
in a country's history, culture and environment, before you visit,
and in the time of globalisation, you can acquaint yourself with
people, food, music, festivals, exhibitions and clubs and museums
from the culture you are about to visit in your home city.
In the case of Greece, even the most blissfully unaware tourist
will have been somewhat prepared, thanks to our ancestors (rather
than our tourism authorities that never had to try hard), whose
weight is sometimes unbearable on modern greek shoulders, as our
culture (philosophy, politics, economy, ecology, theatre, history)
is so inextricably linked to what today goes by the misnomer 'western'
civilisation, that one could be excused for not realising it.
(No accident that 'cosmopolitan' is a greek word in use and with
the same meaning in the 5th century B.C.)
In the first instance, Planeta readers intending to travel to
Greece should have a look at http://www.ecoclub.com/greece.html
and are also welcome to contact me for more input, which may be
provided if they convince me of their good intentions and green
credentials. They should not however ask the dreaded question:
'Where can we practice Ecotourism in Greece?' My short reply would
be 'everywhere you can'.
For the long reply, I would quote 'Ithaca' by the great Alexandrian
poet C.P. Cavafy - Full poem at: http://ithaca.rice.edu/kz/Misc/Ithaka.html
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